FORMER VICE PRESIDENT DICK CHENEY appeared on NBC’s Meet the Press on Sunday. This is what he said when host Chuck Todd asked him about detainees who were tortured and later turned out to be innocent:
CHUCK TODD: Twenty-five percent of the detainees though, 25 percent turned out to be innocent. They were released.
DICK CHENEY: Where are you going to draw the line, Chuck? How are —
CHUCK TODD: Well, I’m asking you.
DICK CHENEY: — you going to know?
(OVERTALK)
CHUCK TODD: Is that too high? You’re OK with that margin for error?
DICK CHENEY: I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. And our objective is to get the guys who did 9/11 and it is to avoid another attack against the United States. I was prepared and we did. We got authorization from the president and authorization from the Justice Department to go forward with the program. It worked. It worked now for 13 years.
We’ve avoided another mass casualty attack against the United States. And we did capture Bin Laden. We did capture an awful lot of the senior guys at Al Qaeda who were responsible for that attack on 9/11. I’d do it again in a minute.
Unquote.
Leaving aside the fact that the Senate report gives the lie to the claim that, even from a purely Machiavellian perspective, torturing prisoners yielded anything but almost uniformly useless “intelligence” — and with the knowledge that torturing prisoners prevented no attacks against the United States — I want to draw your attention to one particular string of words in the above transcript: “I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective.”
The Senate report revealed that our nation, as a result of policies authorized at the highest levels of the Bush administration, tortured innocent people — at least one of them to death — and the vice president has no regrets about that? None whatsoever?
I think it is time to say plainly what has been on the edge of a lot of people’s awareness: The previous administration committed war crimes, and there have been no expressions of remorse or regret for those crimes, even after those crimes have been revealed in all their vileness and depravity.
I think the best course would be the investigation and prosecution of every member of the Bush administration who approved these policies, up to and including former President Bush and Vice President Cheney.
That said, a case could be made that in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, there were some regrettable actions taken in the heat of the moment, and so on — but that case should be made in a court of law by a defense attorney during a trial, perhaps during the sentencing phase.
Our nation used to take this stance when it came to the question of whether prisoners were tortured. Above is an American propaganda poster from the Second World War.
What we do about the fact that this method became our method in the opening years of the last decade will shape our national character in important ways, both now and far into the future.
When I say, “What WE do …” I mean exactly that. We citizens have a choice before us: we can acquiesce to a new paradigm where torture becomes at least a tacitly permissible activity in certain circumstances — and given the tendency of authoritarian tactics to metastasize, we would be choosing a world where none of us is safe — or we can choose to live in a world where laws mean something, a world where the law holds accountable the president and the pauper alike. The latter possibility will only come to pass if you and I insist on it, in no uncertain terms.
It’s worth quoting legendary CBS newsman Edward R. Murrow here. He said the following at the conclusion of a March 9, 1954 program examining the methods and character of Sen. Joseph McCarthy:
“We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result. There is no way for a citizen of a republic to abdicate his responsibilities. As a nation we have come into our full inheritance at a tender age. We proclaim ourselves, as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom, wherever it continues to exist in the world, but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
“The actions of the junior senator from Wisconsin have caused alarm and dismay amongst our allies abroad, and given considerable comfort to our enemies. And whose fault is that? Not really his. He didn’t create this situation of fear; he merely exploited it — and rather successfully. Cassius was right. ‘The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.’”
Matt Talbot is a writer and poet, as well as an old Benicia hand. He works for a tech start-up in San Francisco.
Sharing is caring!
It has been made clear that DiFi, Pelosi and many others were all briefed in detail about the methods being used and they were in approval at the time. Now they are all up in arms.
The war was approved overwhelmingly by congress at the time.
Do I smell politics?
The methods work. We should continue to use them and others as well. It is called war and war is ugly business. Most don’t have the stomach for it. But many find it easy to sit back and complain about things they know nothing about from thousands of miles away.
Maybe it may be better to sit back, keep your mouth shut and just say thank you to our men and women of the volunteer armed forces that risk their lives so you don’t have to.
Oh brother… JBL, you have your head in the sand. Evil commited by us or the enemy is still evil… and should never be tolerated. We shouldn’t need to commit the same acts of terror to win any war (or battle)… and if we do, then we just as bad as they are. I for one believe we are better than this.
I believe you are the one with your head in the sand. I suppose you are in the same opinion of others that say would should sympathize with the Taliban and apologize to them. I call BS. Give them hell!
You have not clue what it takes to wage a war let alone win one!
Let’s not forget that the Taliban are in the position they are in because WE supported them and helped them grow. After all, as St. Ronnie and his cohorts felt at the time, they were fighting those miserable Ruskies, so give ’em anything they want and take a picture in the White House with them while you are at it. History is an annoying thing, isn’t it? It doesn’t, however, let us off the hook as far as these egregious activities are concerned. Yes, all but our brave Barbara Lee voted for this idiocy, but we have to remember (history again) how we were all manipulated by a government which lied to us, a media who went in lock step with that government, never bothering to question anything, and millions of apathetic Americans who went along with it all. We are all to blame. AND, we. are. supposed. to. be. better. than. this. No matter who approved, went along with it or stayed silent. We. are. supposed. to. be. better. than. this. Sadly, we can no longer claim any moral high road.
“You have no clue” shows unmindful rhetoric in response to argument or statement opposed to one’s own view or position. It is usually meritless, and should be avoided in favor of substantive critique of the opponent’s logic by exposing fallacious reasoning or factual inaccuracy. JLB, you have small notion of how wars are won, not by wild effort but by superior strategy that starts from empathetic grasp of an opponent’s sense of things by which you exploit weak spots in his vision that let you predict his decisions and foil his plan.
Robert your comments on how to win a war, may have small portion of value to them, but not without the greater and greatest component and that is having the resolve to engage and win. Our leaders do not have that. They are spineless overly politically corrected apologists!
Which over course also serves to point out, yet again, that you really have no idea what it takes to win a war. I stand on my original comment. You are clueless!
Torture: A history lesson. We need a Special Investigative Counsel, will this happen under president Obama?
Below, more relevant information for Mr. Talbot, the community , citizen-voters and our appointed and elected officials to seriously consider…
“George Bush and Dick Cheney knew perfectly well that what they wanted others to do in their name was both torture and illegal; that’s why they went to such lengths to get compliant lawyers to call it something else and say that other thing was legitimate. So the list has to begin with them. Where it ends is a long way beyond 10. Everyone on the list is almost surely a participant or accomplice in years of torture. Each, at a minimum, needs to be publicly examined under oath, subject to all relevant law, including perjury.”
“Top 10 Government Torturers, 2001-2014”
“1. George Bush. As president, he’s accountable for all the acts of his administration, especially the ones he ordered and/or approved. An anonymous CIA spokesman says Bush “fully authorized torture.” Karl Rove says Bush knew about and approved of torture, and participated in it, as did Rove. Dick Cheney says Bush knew and approved. In early 2008, Bush vetoed legislation designed to control the CIA, including a ban on waterboarding. Congress failed to over-ride the veto. Bush was convicted in Kuala Lumpur in 2012.”
“The individuals responsible for the criminal conspiracy revealed in today’s report must be brought to justice, and must face criminal penalties commensurate with the gravity of their crimes. ”
“The Obama administration has a moral and legal duty to bring American war criminals of three administrations to justice. Not to do so is to continue to use American exceptionalism as a justification for the worst crimes against humanity.”
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Top-10-Torturer-List-Actua-by-William-Boardman-Accomplices_CIA_Crime_Criminal-141220-197.html
All of Congress knew about it. Should would prosecute them all? You can’t ignore the obvious illegal maneuvers of one president (Obama) and then prosecute a past present for the same.
That being said, they were investigated by mr corruption himself, Holder and his cronies and even they couldn’t find anything illegal. You may not like it but it was done legally. Get over the past and start prosecuting the illegal action of the guy in the office currently, that is if you are intellectually honest with yourself, choose to not be a hypocrite, have and scruples or moral fabric in you!
From the above commenter….
“Maybe it may be better to sit back, keep your mouth shut and just say thank you to our men and women of the volunteer armed forces that risk their lives so you don’t have to.”
The rule of law vs. maybe.
From the above article:
“I think the best course would be the investigation and prosecution of every member of the Bush administration who approved these policies, up to and including former President Bush and Vice President Cheney.”
I agree , Mr. Talbott, well stated.
From the article below:
The United Nations Special Rapporteur on counterterrorism and human rights is a British lawyer named Ben Emmerson. Regarding the CIA torture report, he issued a statement saying, in part:
“The individuals responsible for the criminal conspiracy revealed in today’s report must be brought to justice, and must face criminal penalties commensurate with the gravity of their crimes.
The fact that the policies revealed in this report were authorised at a high level within the US Government provides no excuse whatsoever. Indeed, it reinforces the need for criminal accountability.
“International law prohibits the granting of immunities to public officials who have engaged in acts of torture. This applies not only to the actual perpetrators but also to those senior officials within the US Government who devised, planned and authorised these crimes.
“As a matter of international law, the US is legally obliged to bring those responsible to justice… States are not free to maintain or permit impunity for these grave crimes.
“It is no defence for a public official to claim that they were acting on superior orders…
“However, the heaviest penalties should be reserved for those most seriously implicated in the planning and purported authorisation of these crimes… There is therefore no excuse for shielding the perpetrators from justice any longer. The US Attorney General is under a legal duty to bring criminal charges against those responsible.
“Torture is a crime of universal jurisdiction. The perpetrators may be prosecuted by any other country they may travel to. However, the primary responsibility for bringing them to justice rests with the US Department of Justice and the Attorney General.” [emphasis added}
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Top-10-Torturer-List-Actua-by-William-Boardman-Accomplices_CIA_Crime_Criminal-141220-197.html
I hope you rest well tonight Will Gregory under the blanket of protection provided by the brave men and women of our armed forces, whom you are so quick to question how they provide you with that luxury.
Merry Christmas!
Matt said: I think the best course would be the investigation and prosecution…
Several things:
1) There was an investigation and Eric Holder decided not to prosecute, as no laws were broken.
2) The “Senate” report was a “Democrat” report. No Republicans signed on to it.
3) Not one CIA director was interviewed.
4) DiFi and Pelosi were fully aware of what was occurring regarding EIT’s.
5) Leon Panetta stated that information gained from the EIT’s led to the capture of OBL
6) 0Bama (via Biden) used the killing of OBL for political purposes.
7) Drones have killed American citizens without trial. Yet I see no hearts bleeding for that.
Sorry Matt, your feigned outrage rings very hollow.
And what have we “really” done to these terrorists? We made them extremely uncomfortable. Did we cut off any fingers, did we burn anyone alive, did we behead anyone, have we drilled peoples teeth, did we pull of their fingernails, have we cut off their genitals, have we electrocuted them, did we behead their children while their parents watched? NO!
We detained them and we subjected them to loud noises, and made them “feel” like they were drowning using waterboarding. Our treatment of them is like kindergarten compared to what they do to us. Why is that? Because we ARE better than them and we DO hold to a higher standard.
But in the end, war is ugly business. Always has been and always will be. Get used to it.
You are right JLB.
After the liberation of Kuwait I attended a Water Conference in DC, the keynote speaker was the Minister of Water for Kuwait, who presented a booklet of photographic evidence of what the Iraqi’s did to the Kuwaiti’s. It was not pretty. The tortures inflicted on those innocents was horrific and pales in comparison to waterboarding.
Did we make any difference in their growth, power and influence? Did we stop them from committing atrocities on their own people? Did we change any minds about democracy? Did we help root out corruption? Did we save American lives?
We got Bin Laden and YES I believe we did save American lives.
Correction:
“led to” I should have said: “Contributed information that led to…”
Matty whoses side are you on? It appears you write for just a few Progessive Liberal Socialist. Yes I did just write that.. They will come out and just get all excited about what you just wrote. In many ways you just redo from all the news accounts. .Matty just who do you think the enemy of the USA is.? Do you know? You did mention McCarthy. Turns out he was right, just went at it in the wrong way. You are not right on your attack of very good peace loving Americans who hate war maybe even more than you. But do you know how to break the heart of the opposition? Remember Matty America did not start any of these wars and the Left did not let us finish them. I do not like war but at the same time as an American I think the enemy must ber stopped in their tracks.
The entire matter was investigated by the Obama Administration’s Justice Department and no prosecutions followed, due to the fact they were not warranted.
The facts are these: EIT took place in 2012 to 2013. 26 prisoners we subjected to EIT. Each case was reviewed by the Justice Department in order to meet the law. The Justice Department determined that EIT was not torture. Congressional leaders in BOTH PARTIES were informed at the time.
To go back now and prosecute, after the fact, after those involved were informed their actions were legal, could not be held as justified. So states the Holder Justice Department.
It is fair to debate whether EIT is ethical or the definition of torture was stretched. We can learn from this matter. But to state that this is a war crime and we need to prosecute now is beyond the scope of Justice. It moves from prosecution to persecution.
Isn’t it ironic that some people now would grant terrorists, KSM included, a higher level of justice and rights than the good Americans serving in the CIA?
Beyond the beach sand,peace loving americans and the geology major—
Torture: A history lesson. Can you handle the truth?
Below, more relevant documented (i.e. footnoted) information for Mr. Talbot, the community , citizen-voters and our appointed and elected officials to seriously consider…
“The United States is addicted to torture. Not only does this savage addiction run through its history like an overheated electric current, but it has become intensified as part of a broader national psychosis of fear, war and violence. ”
“Foreign and domestic violence now mediate everyday relations and the United States’ connection to the larger world. As such, terror, fear, war and torture, become normalized, and the work of dehumanization takes its toll on the US public as more and more people not only become numb to the horror of torture but begin to live in a state of moral stupor, a coma that relegates morality to the dustbin of history.”
“There is more at stake here than manufactured ignorance and an unconscionable flight from the truth. There is also a dangerous escape from justice, morality and the most basic principles central to a democratic society.”
“When it comes to violence and preparations for violence, the United States is, indeed, No. 1.”
More violent history below. Warning: not for the feint of heart—
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/28055-torture-and-the-violence-of-organized-forgetting
Nice slam Mr. Gregory … Truth-out.org. Great reference.
Hahahahahahaha
I stand by statement. As do most Americans. And the Obama administration.
I love extremists. They are fun to read.
Translation: Too many big words for me. Derpity derp derp.
Sort of like the other reference from Liberaland. That just cracks me up!
Didn’t read it did you? Always looking for excuses aren’t you? I guess that’s one way to continually be disappointed in life. Come back when your comprehension level improves.
Fascinating to see how some will twist themselves up in an effort to defend a practice that we prosecuted — and in at least one case that I know of, executed — Japanese soldiers for committing in WWII. Do you think it makes you better Americans, or worse? And to the fool who says we don’t know what it takes to win a war, what war did torture win for you?
Great article as usual, Matt. You are one of the Herald’s best writers. Don’t forget that your audience is mostly “liberal socialist progressives” and that the usual suspects in these comment threads are a vocal minority. A very small minority in Benicia indeed.
We may be a minority in this town, but we are not in America and we also happen to be on the correct side, the Right side of common sense, logic, facts, truth and what works in America; unlike the liberal, socialist progressives. The beliefs and policies put in place by those kind of thinkers have failed in this country and others over and over and over again and will continue to do so!
I’ll bet you told yourself some version of that in November 2012. Keep it on ice, you’ll need it again in two years.
Do yourself a little favor Hank and do a google search for voting maps based on county results nationwide. What you will see is ALL red. Having that knowledge will help you to not make such an obvious buffoon of yourself!
Didn’t help you last time and won’t help you in 2016. Know why? Because no one lives in Podunk County, Bunblefuck, Utah. Those are big counties that look impressive on a map for one reason only: geographical size. But I don’t expect a person of limited intelligence like you to understand that.
You know nothing of my intelligence yet seem to so willingly put your lack there-of on display. When ever some posts something that stumps you, you immediately go to name calling and personal attacks. But don’t feel bad, it’s a normal liberal response. When you run out of facts, you go in the gutter. I think it may be instinctual.
Stumps? You lost and you don’t even know it. How adorable.
That’s odd, I could have swore that we KICKED YOUR BUTT last month. Maybe I got some incorrect news. Let me check
Hmm ….
No, it was correct. You got smoked! Maybe if you just keep telling yourself that it didn’t happen you can drift off into your regular altered reality and you can live in your utopian society in your dreams. Good luck with that!
And Obama has been eating your lunch ever since. Must be really frustrating. Just remember, every day you’re waking up in Obama’s America. Love it or leave it.
Yes it has been painful and Bummer’s America is becoming a very unattractive place. It will be fun to watch the next president and a repubIican held congress (can you say trifecta) roll back many of the debacles and failing policies.
Get used to disappointment. You won’t even have the Senate after 2016.
JLB why even respond to this guy. He does not want to engage in commen sense. Let him go and he will be all by himself alonging with his hero. He will go nuts on that comment. .
You are so right Bob. But we should feel sorry for him. He can’t help it. It is hard for him because he doesn’t even know what common sense is. It’s just how he was raised.
They say it is better to be thought a fool yet stay quiet than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Hank killed any doubt that may have been remaining a LONG TIME AGO!
It’s just fun to mess with him because every time he replies I get this vision of him foaming at the mouth like a rapid dog, smoke blowing out his ears and the veins in his forehead and neck looking like they are going to explode. Hopefully when that eventually happens he will have his web cam on and it can become a YouTube video. It will get at least 10 views!
JLB you may enjoy the back and forth , but is it worth it. I think not. He will talk about 2016 without any evidence. He never provides evidence just lots of words with no meaning. I have put out my personal feelings with my reasons. I win most of them but I do lose once in awhile. At least I have the guts to do that. H H will say things like its not close enough or will not commit when he knows he will lose. 2016 will be his downfall but he will not remember his statements and make excuses and also personal attacksd. JLB just forget this guy is even around. Just watch the personal attack on me coming from H H or others.
Bob, JLB,
On a separate thread “Garth” posted:
Mrs. Ingle and others, please do not concern yourselves with Danny DeMars’ comments. He/She is someone who constantly writes idiotic posts online just to get a reaction out of people. He/She does this because they have nothing better to do. He/She is someone who writes idiotic, sadistic, ridiculous comments just so people will respond in shock, horror, and disgust,. He/She is like a child who thinks negative attention is better than no attention. This is a person who hides behind a fake name and most likely a dummy email address because they don’t have the courage to write the garbage they write using their real name. If their comments are heartfelt, they are definitely someone who needs professional help, however, I am guessing they are just your basic, ordinary sad and pathetic person who needs to fill their day with something to do. Every time someone responds to his/her comments, it gives them a rush and allows them the opportunity to respond with another asinine post. Mrs. Ingle, and supporters, you have so much more on your plate to deal with than people like Danny DeMars. Don’t give his/her comments another thought. Best wishes to you and your loved ones in what must be a very difficult time in your lives.
His words are equally applicable to the poster in question.
Thank you Dennis.
Another example of your moral confusion. Very illuminating.
“He never provides evidence just lots of words with no meaning.” Pot, meet kettle.
That is the drunk with the Obama Kool-Aid way!
You poor saps have been bamboozled for so long you don’t know right from wrong anymore. Hint: torture is wrong. Torture is wrong. Again: torture is wrong.
Simply put Hank, I disagree. And just because I do, does not mean that you some how have moral high ground. We just see the world differently. It is OK to disagree that is what makes the world go round. You are constantly on here acting like a venomous snake with your commentary toward anyone that does not think like you. You must live in a sad very small cave. I hope and pray that some day the scales will be lifted from you eyes.
Nope, I’m very happy. But I suppose if I’m going to act like a snake it might as well be a venomous one. Happy holidays, torture apologist.
Merry Christmas to you too Hank. Remember Jesus is the reason for the season!
If only more of you so-called Christians would emulate that Jew Jesus, we’d be better off. What would Jesus say about torture, I wonder?
H H I love Chtristmsas. I assume you are not a Christian. So what Holiday do you celebrate. I do respect all others religious beliefs. But I only celebrate Christmas.
It is pretty obvious that torture is a new paradigm for the U.S. We all live in a country that, for now on, will be known as a country that tortures people. There is no changing that.
Well written article, Mr. Talbot. Caused me a moment of pause in my not really caring about methods utilized to extract information from captured terrorists mindset. However, I am comfortable in treatment of a terrorist being different than the laws regarding treatment of prisoners of war. Soldiers representing a country in a proclaimed war facing their opponent openly in battle, whom are captured, should be treated per law. Terrorist are no such enemy. Terrorist represent no country, fight cowardly, with no remorse for the innocent. The prisoner of war laws were not written for, and do not apply to such an adversary.
This specifically addresses the issue of terrorists being covered by the Geneva Convention, among other things: http://www.alan.com/2014/12/18/fact-checkers-dismantle-cheneys-pro-torture-arguments/
Here is an interesting interview about torture by someone who was there and some truths about the levels of torture that the detainees were subjected to. You may find this surprising in comparison to what the media and DiFi would want you to believe.
http://www.westernjournalism.com/former-interrogator-we-had-to-do-our-duty-by-waterboarding-terror-suspects
JLB: in comparison to what the media and DiFi would want you to believe
Those are the key words. This report was a political stunt by a woman who’s husband became a mega millionaire by conducting business with China, one of the worst HRV’s in the world.
Not to mention the fact that she was fully briefed about EXACTLY what was going on and she backed it fully.
Whatever gets you through the night.
As I said JLB,. Notice H H comments. No meaning what so ever, lacking facts, name calling. That is why I say ignore him.
What you mean to say is, no meaning whatsoever that you can comprehend. And again, the next time you post a link or a statistic to back up your buffoonish arguments will be the first time.
Poor H H acts just as I have said. Attacks folks and thern expects everyone to rerspect his comments. Merry Christmas to all and also happy Hoiidays to H H. and many others. I quess H H skips Christmas and goes right to New Years.
Happy Hanukkah
JLB it is a wondeerful time of the Year. I do agree with your comment on Christmas but one person who comments will not. Merry Christmas JLB and to all
Looking back from mid-January, when we know the Republican Party has squeaked a congressional coup-de-Koch, we see the great transmogrification begin, in which the rightist Caucuses of Craziness change into terrorists against the general population of this crack-potted country by scaring the hell out of it about clean air, water, health care, reliable food supply, viable retirement, better economy, safeguarded biosphere and democracy in preference to corporate oligarchy verging on fascism. The Ultra-right faction experiences a rush of destructive lust generated by 65 years of underhanded “libertarian” PR conspiracy to denature our language, turn our heads and tip the world upside down. Obama gets blame for unconstitutional action which the Ultra-right’s radical
Wrongists are frothing at the mouth to foist on the nation themselves, to save us from meaning, law & order. If that sounds nuts to you, you can be sure that’s exactly what it is, and how they are!
I do believe the Republicans only asked for a seat at the table. After the 2014 elections they now have a seat at the table only to be advised in advance that the President will veto their bills. What you are decribing about the Republicans I see no evidence that is even close to being true. Especially when the Keystone Pipeline might get enough Democrats to overide a President veto. I would say the Republicans are more than willing to work with Democrats to pass bills that benefit all. What you are talking about seems to fit President Obama and very left leaning Liberals for sure not the Republicans.
Robert,
In another post you claim that a poster “shows unmindful rhetoric” and then you post this?
You have said many vile and contemptible things on this forum, many of which have been removed in the past and will not be repeated by me in this posting.
However, even for you a new low has been reached. In one paragraph you have compared your political opponents to people who saw off the heads of innocent people with Swiss Army knives and to those who have sent millions of people to gas chambers and committed other atrocities.
Nice job Robert, speaks highly of you as being a fair minded and reasonable person.